Ken:

Our guest today is our friend Dennis Balthaser, who was given the honor or being the master of ceremonies at the Aztec UFO Symposium, an honor he has received in the past.|

Hello Dennis

Dennis Balthaser:

Good morning, how are you?

Ken:

Before we get into the symposium would you tell my readers what extraterrestrial event originally took place at Aztec that makes it so famous?

Dennis Balthaser:

Well ironically, we had the Roswell incident which was in July of 1947 and then ten months later in March of 1948, supposedly there was a crash in Aztec, which is in the four corners area of New Mexico, up around Farmington which is in the area where the four states come together. .This craft was something like 99 feet in diameter and contained twelve or thirteen bodies. The craft was pretty much intact, it was ninety nine feet in diameter and came down in a forced landing of some kind. The story came out, I believe, in 1986 in a book written by William Steinman and Wendell Stevens called "The UFO Crash At Aztec". Originally a columnist named Frank Scully first alerted the world to this thing in a story in a book he wrote, called "Behind The Flying Saucers", which I believed was published in 1950. One of the stories in that book was of course about Aztec. It talked about humanoid bodies that were recovered with an undamaged craft. According to Scully's informants, the disc that landed near Aztec was 99.9 feet in diameter, with an exterior made of a light metal resembling aluminum, but durable to the point where no amount of heat, up to 10,000 degrees, which we could supply, or diamond tipped drill, had the slightest effect on it. The disc apparently incorporated large rings of metal that revolved around a central section, a stabilized cabin, using some kind of gear ratio. They noted that there were no rivets, bolts, screws or signs of any welding. The story came out and there was a lot of controversy about this Scully. Eaton and a couple of guys that investigated thought that the whole thing was a hoax. I myself, didn't put much confidence in the Aztec crash for many years. In recent years a guy named Scott Ramsey from North Carolina has been doing extensive research going through Air Force archives and things like that. I'll talk about him in a minute, but the more research is done, the more it appears that something similar did happen here, except that the craft was practically intact.

Ken:

Would you tell us exactly what the Aztec Symposium is?

Dennis Balthaser:

Well it started eleven years ago and for some unknown reason to me, I have been invited here every year, which is quite unusual to have a researcher be part of a symposium or conference every year. You would think that they would get tired of asking me every year?

Ken:

That is because you do such a good job.

Dennis Balthaser:

Well thank you, but I'm not sure about that. The reason is the Aztec library needed a fund raiser, to try and build a new library. They thought well, the Aztec crash might be a good thing and they probably took notes on what happened in Roswell. So they decided to have an annual symposium in March and the one we had last weekend was probably the biggest and best, as far as numbers and speakers and things like that.

Ken:

Yeah, I am going to get into that with you.

Dennis Balthaser:

Giving Aztec credit, being a serious researcher I am not stuck on the carnival atmosphere and things like that, which surround the Roswell carnival every year. Aztec doesn't do that, they bring in good speakers, none of the festival type stuff and really put on a good presentation for the people that attend the conference. I am really happy with the way that they do it.

Ken:

Who was in attendance this year, as far as speakers go?

Dennis Balthaser:

Well we had one cancellation. We had James Carrion, who is the international director of MUFON. He called two days before the conference to tell us he was sick and couldn't make it and we substituted a guy named Mike Fostenwal, I'll talk about him in a minute. Duane Tidahl is a movie producer from Hollywood, he was there. Mike Fostenwal, who did the Phoenix lights in 1997. Scott and Susan Ramsey from the Aztec Symposium. Of course Stanton Freedman, everybody's familiar with the nuclear physicist the guy I refer to as the grandfather of ufology, rather than just the father, because of his age. Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr. who is the son of Major Marcel, who was the intelligence officer in Roswell in 1947, Ken Storch who is a retired police officer out of Aurora Colorado, who does the research by forensic testing, Timothy Good from England and everybody knows about Timothy and Ted Phillips. He is the guy that has the center for physical trace research and he is just fascinating with the amount of physical research that he has done.

Ken:

What is the library's position on ufos if you know? Do they believe that ufos exist or are they just using this as a fund raiser?

Dennis Balthaser:

I would say that it is about fifty, fifty Ken. They see the benefit of having the symposium, because two years or three years ago, a new library was completed and it's state of the art. I am not saying that the ufo conference totally paid for it, but it certainly had a big bearing on them being able to get the funds and make the building a reality. The town of Aztec is pretty much like Roswell, they take this thing with a grain of salt. Some believe and some don't and that's fine, but the reception that the symposium gives to the speakers is just unbelievable.

Ken:

I see where Disney has contacted the library to get permission to use some of it's memorabilia for the remake of Witch Mountain. Do you know what kind of memorabilia the library has?

Dennis Balthaser:

No there is nothing physical that I am aware of. Out at the crash site itself, some of the interesting stuff that has come up over the years is that there is a road that goes in there. This is petroleum country, where they have wells for natural gas, oil and things like that. There is a road that was made onto the site years ago, that is not on topographic maps from years ago, prior to the crash, so we know that there is a road that was established, but the main thing that I have seen there is a concrete slab that is about six feet square and about six to eight inches in thickness, heavily reinforced with reinforcement steel, that nobody can account for being there. At first we thought that it might be a well cap, but the petroleum people said no, it is not a well cap. There is no reason for that concrete slab to be there other than the reason that it may have been used as a support for a outrigger on a crane, when the craft was moved. We have done some testing on the concrete and also on the REBAR, the reinforcement steel on the inside and it goes back pretty much to the 1940s. To me this is a big thing, because this is something physical that is still there that you can look at and see. So we are of the opinion that it obviously was put there to support an outrigger on a crane, because the area out there is slopped pretty heavily, where the craft came down. At one time there were some trees that were knocked over and then filled in land, so I think they cleaned that up. They do still have the trees and if needed they can do some checking on them also.

Ken:

I have learned that all the events that took place, as far as the symposium, all took place at the local Masonic Lodge. Is that correct?

Dennis Balthaser:

Just this year. We have used the boy's club, the boy's and girl's club, we have used the schools and we had better than 200 people on Friday night at the meet and greet dinner. All the spectators were there and got to talk one on one with the guests. The actual lectures were held in the Masonic Lodge. The facility wasn't big enough and we had to turn people away. One of the problems that I think that Aztec is going to have is finding a facility where this thing can continue to grow.

Ken:

Getting back to the Masonic Lodge. I guess you know that the Masons have been named in a quite a few books as trying to cover ufos up. Do you think that holding events at the lodge was a little ironic?

Dennis Balthaser:

I thought so. As a matter of fact when I first heard that we were going to be at the Masonic lodge, that is a whole other area of research right there. I mean between NASA and the Masons, you could do several hours of interviews. Yeah I was surprised, but they were most compatible and most willing to do it. We were not allowed to go into their secretive room that the Masons have, although the guy that was the head of the Masons in Aztec told us to announce that he would give personal tours through there and he did. So they did open it up to the public if they wanted to see and he explained...., I didn't go in, I didn't have time. I guess he explained what the Masons are about. It was interesting though.

Ken:

I see that all of the speakers were limited to one hour and 15 minutes. Did any speakers get so involved that they spoke for a far greater amount of time, or did the audience get so wrapped up that he had to keep going?

Dennis Balthaser:

Well in the past we have had a problem with some of the speakers. Particularly the ones I refer to as Woo Woos. We have pretty much eliminated them from Aztec, we don't even invite them anymore. We have a group that gets together on the speakers and probably next month they will start on next year. They decide which speakers that they want and we have decided that we won't have any of these guys in anymore. These are the new age types and the far out guys that don't do research and just try for an ego trip. I have been the master of ceremonies, I think that this is my third time and I have been a speaker or an mc all eleven years and they refer to me as a policeman, because what I did was tell them all up front that you have one hour and fifteen minutes to do your presentation and if it doesn't take that long, you can do questions and answers, but I will shut you off after one hour and fifteen minutes. We then have a fifteen minute break and everybody stretches their legs and the next guy sets up his PowePoint or whatever he is using. It worked very well. They were very cooperative with me and they kidded me a lot about the time schedule, but none of them, except, I think Ted Phillips, may have run over a little bit, because he had so much information. We kept pretty good on the time schedule, I was happy with it.

Ken:

Did you ever think about electric shock, you know if they go over you press a button?

Dennis Balthaser:

That might work. No they were real cooperative with me, in fact at the meet and greet dinner, I gave them all a schedule with their names and what times they would be speaking and asked that they be ready to set up in that 15 minute segment between speakers and they were all real good about it.

Ken:

We are now getting into the part of the interview where I am going to ask you about individual speakers and see what you can remember about what they said.

Dennis Balthaser:

I have some notes about them in front of me so we should be okay.

Ken:

Oh good. What can you tell us about the Condon Report and what Dr. Roy Craig had to say about it?

Dennis Balthaser:

Oh there is a lot of discussion about it, it's typical about the Blue Book. The people that were involved had a predetermined agenda and I think that was all set up prior to the Condon Report ever being done. The consequences of it were that it was of very little value. Stanton Freedman gave me a copy of a Condon Report that he had done and I had not read yet and I haven't read and I want to go through that and see what he has to say about that. I don't put a whole lot of confidence in the Condon Report, nor do I put any in the Blue Book Report, because there is like 700 cases in Blue Book that are unsolved and what really amazes me is that Roswell isn't even in the Blue Book.

Ken:

Yeah I know. Was there anything new about the Condon Report, maybe something we don' know about?

Dennis Balthaser:

Not at this conference there wasn't. Nobody brought it up, there may have been a question or two, but nothing unusual.

Ken:

I am always interested in what Timothy Good has to say, would you tell us about his lecture?

Dennis Balthaser:

Timothy showed a lot of slides and different things that he has encountered in research over the years. He became interested in this stuff back in 1955, when he read Major Kehoe's book describing the military and civilian pilot accounts of ufos In 1965 he began his own research after reading a book by Air Force Captain Edward Ruppelt and since then he has amassed a wealth of information and several thousand declassified documents, some from the United States, some from England. He has lectured all over the world, he is a concert....

Ken:

Oh yeah I know, he was part of the philharmonic orchestra.

Dennis Balthaser:

Yeah.

Ken:

I like to talk to him, he is very interesting.

Dennis Balthaser:

He was sick the whole time. When he got here he picked up a cold or flu or something and he wasn't even sure he could speak, but he did and he did excellent. He doctored himself up for a few days and got okay and did an excellent job.

Ken:

He is a very nice man, yeah.

Dennis Balthaser:

He is. He was born in London and completed his formal education at the King's school in Canterbury. As a violinist he gained scholarships to the Royal Academy of Music. Professionally beginning in 1963 he worked with the London Symphony and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and freelanced with famous orchestras. These are not country bands.

Ken:

His father was a famous musician.

Dennis Balthaser:

Yeah and he did a lot of session work that I didn't know, with Phil Collins, George Harrison, those type people. He is fascinating to talk to.

Ken:

He is. I wanted to ask you about Stanton Freedman, Did he give a new lecture or did he give his usual college lecture about ufos being real when he talks at these symposiums?

Dennis Balthaser:

He did a new lecture, because he has a new book coming out. UFOs and science or something to that effect. There is another guy with a background as a nuclear physicist with GM, GE, Westinghouse, TRW. He claims that all the projects that he was on and the millions of dollars that was spent were all cancelled projects. Of course his "Crash At Corona" is the definitive book on Roswell, then there is "Top Secret/Majic" and has this new one that will be out pretty soon. He just wrote and talked about the Betty Hill Story, Betty and Barney Hill. He co-wrote with Betty's nice, Catherine Martin and she has all the records and stuff of Betty and Barney Hill. You know Stan, you get him cranked up during a panel discussion. On Sunday all the speakers opened themselves up to questions from the audience and he pretty well took charge as Stanton usually does and took care of things.

Ken:

I really don't know much about Stanton Freedman personally, I have never spoken to him.

Dennis Balthaser:

He is my hero, he really is. I have been working with Stanton for the last twelve or thirteen years. We communicate maybe twice a week. He just spoke to me this morning and said that he had been asked to do a debate with Nick Redfern. Nick apparently has some more information and Stanton is waiting to get a copy of it and they are going to have a debate, I think on radio somewhere, I am not sure where. Usually if you debate Stanton you come out on the losing end. He was on the Larry King show a couple of times because of the Stephenville, Texas situation and Matt Shermer and McGaughey are both absolute Woo Woos in my book. They never get new information, it is the same old story. McGaughey says that the people who see these things weren't trained observers and that is not what the people are asking, they just want to know what are they seeing? They are not claiming that they are ufos or anything else.

Ken:

Yeah I love when that happens.

Dennis Balthaser:

Stan and I both have had trouble with the documentaries on tv, because you give so much of your time and research for free and then when they get it to the cutting room, the editor gets a hold of it and it completely destroys the work you did. We were both on the National Geographic Channel a couple of years ago and I spent six hours in town interviewing with them, I used my vehicle to run all over southeast New Mexico and barely got a thank you out of them and when the story came out about Roswell, the last comment on the tv show was that Roswell was nothing but a myth.

Ken:

I think I saw that. You had no way of knowing who they were going to interview and put the clips in of.

Dennis Balthaser:

No. I am just about convinced that the documentaries are based on profits and ratings. Duane Tidahl was there and I laid into him pretty heavy. He is doing some good work with documentaries, because he himself realizes what the problem is with some of these documentaries and he is trying is trying to correct that. That is just one of many that are doing this.

Ken:

Yeah, you are right, they do a lot of that for ratings, there is no doubt about it. What does Frank Warren think that the public's perception of ufos is, the reason I ask about this is that is apparently what he talked about at the symposium?

Dennis Balthaser:

Well Frank didn't make it.

Ken:

Oh he didn't? Okay, I cross him off.

Dennis Balthaser:

We substituted one of these guys for Frank because he couldn't get away. There is another one, I have been working with Frank... I don't know if you remember my interception in Oklahoma, where I went after the metal, back in 1997?

Ken:

I don't recall that right off. (This answer was wrong, I was told previously, but what can you expect from one 66 year old man, interviewing another, I forgot I had heard this and he forgot he had told me. ha. ha. ha. . The story is so good I am listing it again.

Dennis Balthaser:

I don't know if you recall when I went after a piece of metal in 1997?

Ken:

I don't recall.

Dennis Balthaser:

I went after a piece of metal and got intercepted by alleged Air Force or OSI agents.

Ken:

Ah, tell us about this, I am not going to let this one go.

Dennis Balthaser:

We will have to do one on this. I was with the ufo museum at the time as a volunteer and got a call at the time from a gentlemen in Oklahoma who said his dad was stationed here as an MP in 1947 and guarded the ambulances that were taking the bodies down to the hospital and had a piece of the metal about the size of a silver dollar. The son didn't even know that his dad had been stationed here and knew nothing about Roswell. His dad told him that they had to get rid of this metal, because people will kill over it. He said that he took it out of an old foot locker and told him to put in on a night stand crumpled up, which he did. In about twenty seconds it went back to its original shape. This is exactly what we have been hearing about, this memory metal at Roswell. I talked to the old man one time on the phone. He apologized for his breathing, he had terminal cancer, had six months to live and was looking forward to me coming over. Confidentiality was a big thing with the family. I had a phone number and got over to Oklahoma. I called three times after I checked into a hotel and kept getting a recording. I thought that this was a wasted trip and that I have been scammed and this was a hoax. About 3:30 the phone rang at the motel and a woman said to meet them at Denny's restaurant at 7 o'clock. So I went to Denny's and a man and woman came in and he said are you Dennis? I said yeah. He said that the gentlemen that you plan on meeting will not be here. I said, who are you? He said that we are special agents of the United States Air Force of the Office of Special Investigations. I said how did you know that I was coming over here? He said we knew Monday that you would be here Friday. I said, is my phone tapped? He said, you know how we do business. I spent three and one half hours with them Ken, we talked about the Roswell incident, we talked about Area 51, he had a map of New Mexico, we talked about the crash sites. He had some drawings of ufos, we talked about the bible, the religious aspect, the government cover up.It was a detailed meeting for three and one half hours. Then he told me that the family had decided that the government should have the metal, not me. I felt that this was an outright lie, because of the arrangements that I had made. I came back the next day, Sunday. When I got back to the hotel room that night, I had taken a video camera and a cassette recorder with me in the event that I got to meet the father. I would have liked to get him on tape, get his story and then get the metal and get it tested. When I got back to the hotel I tried to put down......I didn't take notes at the meeting, because I didn't know what I was dealing with. When I got back to the hotel I got the tape recorder out and tried to talk about everything that I remembered. Then the next day on the drive home, I had a notepad next to me in the truck and when I would think of something, I would write a note. I kept this to myself for four months. I got back here on Sunday night and called back over there on Monday and talked to the son. I said I was very disappointed and felt that I was set up. He said that he couldn't talk right now that there was someone still there. About that time another voice came on the phone and told me that they didn't do any strong arm tactics and all this. That was in June 97. In October I went public. I had talked to Stanton (Freedman), because when I got back I was paranoid. For days I checked the ignition of my truck, I didn't know what had happened. I put tape over the fender and the hood like police recommend, to see if anybody messed with the engine. I didn't know what I would find when I got back to my residence. Finally I talked to Stanton (Freedman) and he said go public. He said if you go public and something happens, everybody will know why. He was right, when I went public, I felt like a weight was lifted off of my shoulders. There it was, the information was out, now let's see what happens. Nothing really took place, I wasn't able to do any further checking. In December I decided that I had never really looked to see who had owned that telephone in Oklahoma. I called AT&T, my long distance carrier and lied to them and said that I was doing my taxes and that I had some numbers and didn't recalled the names and asked if they could help me. It happened that the first name of the female agent was the same first name that the telephone was listed to. I called over there again and told her who I was and that I was very upset and I wanted to give them the opportunity to explain what happened. A voice came on the phone and said, if you keep messing with the Air Force and the OSI, you are barking up the wrong alley, CLICK. I felt that was a threat.

Ken:

Yeah I think so.

Dennis Balthaser:

I got Frank Warren involved, he had heard about it, it was on the internet and stuff like that. He got involved and Frank and I have been working closely together ever since, he and Stanton and I did a lot of research together. Frank is excellent at finding records. Freedom of Information requests, military records, things like that.